Exactly as I see it! Probably happen in the next 15 years/ as an obvious beginning, 25 years for sure. Sorry kids and grandkids, greed for the few will continue until we........ Daryl On Dec 10, 2010, at 9:46 AM, William Witt wrote: > World-wide demand for petroleum is steadily increasing, most > notably in the two most populous countries, India and China, while > production increases cannot keep pace. Barring a global economic > depression, these trends will continue. In consequence, baseline > (not speculative) crude oil prices are reaching a new plateau in > the $80/bbl range. Within a very few years, the steady base price > will hit $100/bbl. The true economics of ethanol--no masking, no > externalizing, of costs--will become sharply clearer. The big > corporate interests (aka "persons" with unlimited "rights" > according to the Roberts Gang of Five) will continue trying to > brainwash us on the status quo. Unless we non-corporate, natural > persons reestablish "Of...by...and for the People," as the central > principle of governance, we are going to be trapped in a country > hell-bent on waste and war... until it all collapses, and the rich > retreat to their Swiss estates and their select US enclaves, where > they'll be guarded by private armies...and the rest of us battle to > survive. > > BW > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Donna Buell <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > Isn't this looking at ethanol in a vacuum? > > The issue with biofuels is rarely the carbon burned in the fuel. > The issue with biofuels is the carbon emissions in the process of > growing the feedstocks, in the conversion of our land from carbon > sinks to carbon emitters, in the inappropriately located, poorly > regulated or excessively large biofuels facilities, etc. We need > to take a full life cycle view of bio-energy. > > And on the bigger scale: This isn't about ethanol v. crude for > autos. This is about more of the same v. transitioning our energy > to truly renewable. This is about refusing to upgrade our cars > because we can claim to use "renewable" ethanol instead of making > more efficient cars. This is about Big Ag and Big Oil vying for > their next big grab on our natural resources. > > If anybody opposes perennials for on-the-farm energy using pyrolsis > or some other highly-efficient method of producing energy, please > let me know.... But FYI, directly from the new policy statement: > "Sierra Club opposes further deployment of corn-based ethanol based > on its extremely dubious net carbon benefits and its unresolved > direct and indirect environmental impacts. The Club also opposes > proposals to overuse agricultural waste and residue products (e.g., > corn stover) without rigorous evidence that the material being used > is surplus to the needs of soil health and fertility." > > Donna > > > > On Dec 9, 2010, at 5:23 PM, Ed Woolsey wrote: > > > Lee: > > No worries. I always enjoy some discussion on the > subject. This is > > one of those topics where you’ve always needed to follow WHO pays > for these > > studies, and, the strings that come attached, attached to so many > of our > > academics today. With most of these AQ tests there were always > “agendas”. > > I fear that this is one of the main reasons that the enviro > community is so > > skeptical of ethanol. > > Ethanol does not have the energy (btu’s) per gallon of > gasoline. > > 73,000 vs 115,000. or about 30% less…so Gerald…I’m not sure how > you would > > drop 10% or Lee…you would drop…30-40%. 9X115,000 plus 1x73,000 for > > E10 and 10x115,000 for straight gasoline. I’m calling BS….ok…a > little BS. > > Gasoline is REFORMULATED for cold weather conditions. The use > of lighter > > components (volatile that start easier) would lower the total > btu’s in your > > winter blend. Or, gasoline companies would have an economic > incentive to > > dump lower grade gasoline and boost it more than 10%vol. > Perhaps we need > > to monitor the blends more. > > Other related issue is the use of ethanol octane…110 vs > gasoline’s 85 or a > > little higher. Octane is an indicator of how efficiently the > fuel combusts. > > Because ethanol has a higher octane you can use it in the higher > efficiency > > engines. (diesel) Ethanol likes 16 to 1 and the current engines > are about 8.5 > > to 1. Ethanol is short shifted big time. Boosting the > compression ratio for the > > fuel results is something like 25% greater fuel efficiency. (If > anyone’s > > interested they can look it up or I can find it somewhere) Oh, > and the > > reduced efficiency leads to what???? yes...more pollutants. > > Short story long….what we should be using is about 80%ethanol 20% > water > > mixture in a higher compression engine…tuned for the fuel. Then > lets see that > > AQ study….ethanol will smoke any fossil. (pun intended) e > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > To unsubscribe from the IOWA-TOPICS list, send any message to: > > [log in to unmask] > > > > Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: > > http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp > > > > Sign up to receive Sierra Club Insider, the flagship > > e-newsletter. Sent out twice a month, it features the Club's > > latest news and activities. Subscribe and view recent > > editions at http://www.sierraclub.org/insider/ > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > To unsubscribe from the IOWA-TOPICS list, send any message to: > [log in to unmask] > > Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: > http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To > unsubscribe from the IOWA-TOPICS list, send any message to: IOWA- > [log in to unmask] Check out our Listserv > Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/ > lists/faq.asp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To unsubscribe from the IOWA-TOPICS list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp