A very provocative and important posting from the national Club transportation list. Grenelle refers to a French roundtable on the environment that has resulted in major projects such as high speed rail building. Now, if the French would just shut down their nuclear reactors . . . Curing the addiction, by reducing automobile driving, seems to me just as important as stopping the Keystone pipeline, which is like denying the addicts their drug. Tom In a message dated 6/21/2013 8:47:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: As noted, they are currently investing @ $25 billion/year in increasing tar sands extraction. Which is, by coincidence, the same amount that would be required for the United States to equal the French urban rail building effort per capita (France x4.75 = USA). That is the investment required to "cure the addiction". Rail cars can be built as quickly as tar sands capacity can be increased, after a short ramp up time to either add new shifts to existing factories or build new rail car factories. Going East from Alberta, it is extremely easy to add a second, or even third track to existing rail lines. After all, we have three and four tracks hauling coal out from the Powder River Basin of Wyoming today (which is even more carbon emitting). And new rail lines are not THAT difficult to build on the Great Plains. As noted before, I do not see transportation as the limiting factor for tar sands extraction. Labor, northern Alberta infrastructure, capital, water and natural gas are more limiting. Frank Chuck's report does not disagree with my previously stated observation. We should be protesting *FOR* an "American Grenelle" to limit carbon emissions, rather than against Keystone XL. Curing the addiction is a more viable strategy than denying addicts their drug of choice. Alan ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Chuck Frank <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: CONFIDENTIAL: TAR SANDS VISIT REPORT Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:29:46 -0500 All of what you say is perceptive and accurate. They believe that the oil will get out on rail if not in a pipeline and think it's stupid since it will cost more and create more environmental damage than if transported by pipeline. And that is all true. But I believe it was on this listserv that I read an article talking about the logistical limitations of shipping by rail especially in the short term. There are only so many rail cars that can be built and run on the existing rail lines and I'm not sure if or how many more rail lines can be built in and out of that area. Charles E. Frank 25 Lakeview Terrace Highland Park, IL 60035-5041 (c) 312-613-2204 [log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) On Jun 21, 2013, at 5:24 PM, Irvin Dawid <[log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) > wrote: thanks for sharing - and preparing such an extensive report, Chuck. I only saw one reference to rail: "Rail transportation is adding 250,000 bpd capacity every year recently. Rail costs $10 to $15 more per barrel vs. a pipeline." I am concerned that rejecting the pipeline will only cause the suppliers - and the refineries, to resort to rail. A most interesting case occurred in southern California - refineries opted out of a pipeline funding agreement to transport oil by rail instead. See Bloomberg: Energy "Amid U.S. Oil Boom, Railroads Are Beating Pipelines in Crude Transport" By Matthew Philips and Asjylyn Loder June 13, 2013 Surprisingly, this article neglected to cover the increased safety issues associated with this type of oil transport. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-13/amid-u-dot-s-dot-oil-boom-ra ilroads-are-beating-pipelines-in-crude-transport However, E&E picked-up on it: "Is rail-bound crude oil a disaster waiting to happen?" Blake Sobczak, E&E reporter Published: Friday, May 31, 2013 "The Northeast has old, dilapidated infrastructure. We have neglected it for decades, and now, all of a sudden, there's this renaissance of railroads coming back with oil," said Fadel Gheit, managing director and senior analyst covering the oil and gas sector at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc. "When you increase the traffic, you increase the chances of accidents." http://www.eenews.net/energywire/stories/1059982047 (Bakken oil is being transported via rail to NE refineries and ports, including Albany, N.Y.) Irvin Dawid Burlingame, CA On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Chuck Frank <[log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) > wrote: Last week Debbie and I traveled to Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada to see and learn about the Canadian Tar Sands mining operations. Attached is my confidential report with photos. Please do not pass this on without my permission. Thanks. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Join the conversation on 21st Century Transportation which provides the infrastructure so you can walk, bike or take transit instead of having to drive for every trip, and have low carbon cars and fuels when you do drive, at http://connect.sierraclub.org/Groups/Green_Transportation To unsubscribe from the CONS-TRANS-CHAIRS-FORUM list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp Charles E. Frank 25 Lakeview Terrace Highland Park, IL 60035-5041 (c) _312-613-2204_ (tel:312-613-2204) [log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Join the conversation on 21st Century Transportation which provides the infrastructure so you can walk, bike or take transit instead of having to drive for every trip, and have low carbon cars and fuels when you do drive, at http://connect.sierraclub.org/Groups/Green_Transportation To unsubscribe from the CONS-TRANS-CHAIRS-FORUM list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To unsubscribe from the CONS-TRANS-CHAIRS-FORUM list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] (mailto:[log in to unmask]) Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To unsubscribe from the CONS-TRANS-CHAIRS-FORUM list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To unsubscribe from the CONS-TRANS-CHAIRS-FORUM list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To unsubscribe from the IOWA-TOPICS list, send any message to: [log in to unmask] Check out our Listserv Lists support site for more information: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/faq.asp To view the Sierra Club List Terms & Conditions, see: http://www.sierraclub.org/lists/terms.asp